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Postato da Permamuted, 30.03.2017 - 10:14

It is time to make this happen. Myself chess and desu orginally conceived the ds boost to give ds light defensive capabilities. The militia boost was an alternative to the previously existing 6 defence infantry which the admins nerfed without discussion. This boost was only ever meant to be a temporary beta. Then along came ivan with a new unforseen marine capacity upgrade adding further to ds' already unmatched expansion capabilities. We have tried it now and it is obviously too strong. It would be unfair of me to leave it in place just because i no longer duel and it doesn't affect me. I can see it needs to happen, the duelists see it needs to happen.

I think we should remove the militia defence boost. This will leave ds still a powerful competitive strat without destroying it completely. It was already an ok strat before any of the changes but the militia range and extra marine capacity should be enough to achieve what was originally intended. If anyone has any other suggestions i am all ears. I saw witch doctors suggestion of 7 attack ds helis. This too could work however it would probably require further amendment. I dont want to see ds rendered useless.

This will be my last alteration to the strategies, any further developements will have to come from future generations or our admins if they ever return to work on this game. This last change will leave the strats in the best shape theyve ever been in with all bar ra and hw having a competitive niche.

I am going to leave this thread up for a while before going to ivan. If anyone has any further insights/ideas/solutions please post them below. I am only interested in constructive and logical posts. Anything else will be ignored.

Allow me to take the liberty of pre-emptively striking off the usual trash that fills up these threads. No this is not just about ds ukraine. No this is not just about europe+. No scenarios and rp have no influence on strat balance. No ds is not being nerfed so laochra can enjoy pd supremacy. No we do not need to just learn how to counter a different playstyle. No clovis that laochra was proved wrong a year ago does not have anything to do with ds' current overpowered state. No waffel, just no.

I think that deals with most of it. Looking forward to the responses.

4nic Illyria Post: 5351 Da: Italia	01.04.2017 - 14:41 4nic Scritto da Xenosapien, 31.03.2017 at 19:31 Reduced niche? it dominates small to medium maps and while not the best, isn't too bad in world. It dominates only in 5k and 10k when players use pd imp gc lb...the strategies that are strong due to infs,and thats basicly the only strong point of ds,to kill infantry. If 3vs3 was played on 15k 25k or 50k settings nobody would use ds.all the ds nerf talk due to it being strong as only 2-3 countries in eu+ 10k ---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon Caricamento... Caricamento...
4nic Illyria Post: 5351 Da: Italia	+1 01.04.2017 - 14:43 4nic Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 14:06 Scritto da Waffel, 01.04.2017 at 13:50 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 13:39 How would you counter ds ukr with turk, please explain. But yeah, I am not the right person to come up with this, all I am saying is u guys are using ukr as basis, which is not really a thing to do when it comes down to BALANCING something. If one country beats every single other pick on the map, then yes it is worth balancing it based on it. If 1 country beats all other countries on the map...maybe the country is OP and not the strat ---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon Caricamento... Caricamento...
Witch-Doctor (Mod) Paradox Post: 3002	01.04.2017 - 15:17 Witch-Doctor (Mod) Scritto da 4nic, 01.04.2017 at 14:43 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 14:06 Scritto da Waffel, 01.04.2017 at 13:50 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 13:39 How would you counter ds ukr with turk, please explain. But yeah, I am not the right person to come up with this, all I am saying is u guys are using ukr as basis, which is not really a thing to do when it comes down to BALANCING something. If one country beats every single other pick on the map, then yes it is worth balancing it based on it. If 1 country beats all other countries on the map...maybe the country is OP and not the strat It's easier to fix a strat than to have amok update the map smartass. Caricamento... Caricamento...
4nic Illyria Post: 5351 Da: Italia	01.04.2017 - 15:37 4nic Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 15:17 Scritto da 4nic, 01.04.2017 at 14:43 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 14:06 Scritto da Waffel, 01.04.2017 at 13:50 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 01.04.2017 at 13:39 How would you counter ds ukr with turk, please explain. But yeah, I am not the right person to come up with this, all I am saying is u guys are using ukr as basis, which is not really a thing to do when it comes down to BALANCING something. If one country beats every single other pick on the map, then yes it is worth balancing it based on it. If 1 country beats all other countries on the map...maybe the country is OP and not the strat It's easier to fix a strat than to have amok update the map smartass. There will always be people who would oppose to nerfs and buffs..if amok just updates 1 troublemaking country it would fix everything ---- ''Everywhere where i am absent, they commit nothing but follies'' ~Napoleon Caricamento... Caricamento...
Khal.eesi Illyria Post: 4213 Da: Israele	+1 01.04.2017 - 17:30 Khal.eesi Nerf the fuck out of DS. Please. And on a side note its funny how every year we have the same conversation about strat changes, like with ra, blitz, ds, with exactly the same people or the same type of people, since some players retire and new ones join. But its funny how identical the dynamics of the situation is, lao on the one side with some competitive players on his side, said strat abusers on the other side and random people. Offcourse clovis always picks the side against laochra and works hard to make his life miserable. Oh and waffel is the wild card, siding either with lao or with clovis, depending on who he hates more this year/period ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
Waffel Syndicate Post: 6422 Da: Gibuti	+1 01.04.2017 - 18:23 Waffel Scritto da Khal.eesi, 01.04.2017 at 17:30 Nerf the fuck out of DS. Please. And on a side note its funny how every year we have the same conversation about strat changes, like with ra, blitz, ds, with exactly the same people or the same type of people, since some players retire and new ones join. But its funny how identical the dynamics of the situation is, lao on the one side with some competitive players on his side, said strat abusers on the other side and random people. Offcourse clovis always picks the side against laochra and works hard to make his life miserable. Oh and waffel is the wild card, siding either with lao or with clovis, depending on who he hates more this year/period duhhh gotta create some drama bruh, AW forums boring af! xxxaxaxaxa And khal always picking the side against me, which also is siding with lao xaxa ---- Scritto da Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44 Waffel for mod 2015 Caricamento... Caricamento...
Freeman Account eliminato	01.04.2017 - 22:38 Freeman Account eliminato Scritto da clovis1122, 31.03.2017 at 19:09 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 31.03.2017 at 19:05 Scritto da clovis1122, 31.03.2017 at 16:40 Not nerfing ds, but buffing other strategies. This might work, but admins are reluctant to other strats tho'. Also, nic's idea with changing ukr stats might work or it may destroy classical east.. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Google Shadow Aces Post: 2705 Da: USA	+3 01.04.2017 - 22:40 Google I am pretty sure ivan's stance from here on out is that there will be no changes to the current strategies. ---- Helpful Guides Caricamento... Caricamento...
Ghost Account eliminato	02.04.2017 - 00:42 Ghost Account eliminato -1 def for millia and - 1 attack for helicopters Caricamento... Caricamento...
Tirpitz406 ENIGMA Post: 2927 Da: Germania	02.04.2017 - 05:31 Tirpitz406 Just give it a minor nerf, like removing the +1 marines range ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Post: 9043 Da: Repubblica Dominicana	02.04.2017 - 08:23 clovis1122 Scritto da Permamuted, 01.04.2017 at 10:22 Ds uk and germany are bad you say? Well obviously, why are you making that point? Scritto da Permamuted, 31.03.2017 at 23:37 Ds will lose on big maps vs most strats? no shit sherlock. I would be concerned if it wasn't like that. DS should of course outperform the other strategies in DS's niche. Problems arises when the DS starts to usurp other strategies niche. All the tests that I picked are zones in which DS should perform bad. You got a rich but pretty large map on one side and some poor maps with medium size. If you can play DS and put up a fight in theses zones, then of course, I would'be concerned. Scritto da Permamuted, 01.04.2017 at 10:22 I have tested what i stated here and encountered it in practice. I encouraged you to perform similar tests.Ds in its' current form outproduces and out expands every other midrange strat. Now do you want me to perform these tests? It will be my olive branch to you. I will hop onto destoria and take laochrastan and optimally expand with each midrange strat to t5 and post the results. Scritto da Permamuted, 31.03.2017 at 23:37 Since i know how much you hate eu then go to destoria and repeat the same test with laochrastan or silverdrakia. Check income, land taken, unit count and unit prod. Then come back to me and tell me ds isnt op. Blitz admittedly might match ds on those criteria... There's a problem with theses settings. Because it's based on raw expansion power, you're assuming that you won't have to defend, but thrown all the money and units to expansion. DS should'be good on that. DS's main selling point is the fact that it can crush infantries/militias waves with ease. With some funds, DS helicopters becomes the best units for expansion. I don't think we need to argue about that. I'm afraid that is not a good test-case scenario. Having several duels there would allow you to test all the important factor. Ease to defend, expansion capabilities, versatility, and so on. Eventually you should encounter some offensive-strat player to test how DS fairs against them. The latest point is important. It would'be pretty interesting to see a DS vs SM duel in True Competition map or both as Poland in the Symetrical Europe, just to see how both fairs when having the same expansion opportunities. Scritto da Permamuted, 31.03.2017 at 23:37 I should also point out that i never claimed ds on africa was "amazing"... ...This was fine before but now with 3 range militia and 5 defence it has somewhat of a lategame now. It is pretty cancerous. DS is obviously good at Rushing but that's not what I wanted to test there. As for his lategame potential on poor zones, where you have ~200 to ~500 income in the biggest part of the game, It should'be below GW,IMP,HW,PD and Blitz by default (I'm being gentle here). Caricamento... Caricamento...
Evic Epic Clan Post: 1534 Da: Croazia	+1 02.04.2017 - 08:26 Evic -1 att for helis and -1 def for mili and all is fine Caricamento... Caricamento...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Post: 9043 Da: Repubblica Dominicana	02.04.2017 - 08:44 clovis1122 Quota: I am pretty sure ivan's stance from here on out is that there will be no changes to the current strategies. I believe that Ivan's concern was about rolling unpopular changes. He wrote in the interview: Quota: Ivan: Amok's view is "let's never touch them again", and after the responses to the latest changes, I tend to agree with him. Every change that is supported by a group of people (in this case it was Laochra and co) will be vehemently opposed by another, even though it might seem like a net positive and rather uncontroversial at the time. The idea is to find a change which everybody can agree to (or being fine with). But it's hard when everybody wants to impose themselves and nobody wants to secede. They all go "I win-you lose" mentality and negotiations doesn't works like that... Ideally I'd say leave it as it is but I can understand that some players (lao and co) believes that DS should'be changed. I could'be wrong. They could'be seeing something that I don't. I can secede and agree to a slight Nerf, but I'd like my concerns to be addressed first. I (and I believe many others) would like to see a danger in DS on it's current form, outside of DS Ukraine. So far we (or me) haven't seen this. That is why I proposed lao to play DS in other areas and post the results. Personally it would credit him a lot from my perspective, if he can show a danger in DS there. Is DS good against SM when in fair conditions? Is DS's lategame good? Proof backed up by duels and screenshot would help a lot to prove theses points. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Permamuted Illyria Post: 6176 Da: Irlanda	02.04.2017 - 10:05 Permamuted Scritto da clovis1122, 02.04.2017 at 08:23 I would be concerned if it wasn't like that. DS should of course outperform the other strategies in DS's niche. Problems arises when the DS starts to usurp other strategies niche. All the tests that I picked are zones in which DS should perform bad. You got a rich but pretty large map on one side and some poor maps with medium size. If you can play DS and put up a fight in theses zones, then of course, I would'be concerned. There's a problem with theses settings. Because it's based on raw expansion power, you're assuming that you won't have to defend, but thrown all the money and units to expansion. DS should'be good on that. DS's main selling point is the fact that it can crush infantries/militias waves with ease. With some funds, DS helicopters becomes the best units for expansion. I don't think we need to argue about that. I'm afraid that is not a good test-case scenario. Having several duels there would allow you to test all the important factor. Ease to defend, expansion capabilities, versatility, and so on. Eventually you should encounter some offensive-strat player to test how DS fairs against them. The latest point is important. It would'be pretty interesting to see a DS vs SM duel in True Competition map or both as Poland in the Symetrical Europe, just to see how both fairs when having the same expansion opportunities. DS is obviously good at Rushing but that's not what I wanted to test there. As for his lategame potential on poor zones, where you have ~200 to ~500 income in the biggest part of the game, It should'be below GW,IMP,HW,PD and Blitz by default (I'm being gentle here). When we encountered ds on africa i died t1 to a ds rush on SAs cap. I sent khal my money and he killed cameroon by t5. The ds player spammed militia and pushed north with occasional heli support outexpanding and outproducing khal who was imperialist. Khal tried taking north but was driven out. That is ridiculous. On a map like africa if you take advantage of a power strat like sm if or ds t1 to gain an expansion advantage, you shouldnt also get the benefit of a powerful lategame after. It unbalances that area of the meta. I agree with you, it should definitely be below gw imp hw pd and blitz there. The reason i encouraged you to try those settings is because that is where the imbalance lies. Ds' unmatched expansion and unit prod capabilities because of the 5 defence militia. It is now worth channeling income into spamming stacks of them. Whether you can stop rushes depends on the map layout and whether or not you can bring units to your cap to defend in time. The example i provided with ukraine was getting 35-40 into kiev t3 with 1 at while taking half the map speaks for itself in terms of the criteria you mentioned . I don't know why you would expect this to be different elsewhere. The question is whether the country and surrounding area is suitable for ds or not. This is why i favour the militia defence nerf. If the units arent so powerful then the problem ismore manageable. I don't see how those duels you are suggesting would provide much in the way of useful data. True competition's income is too low to support these strats. Symmetrical eu however would work in terms of a fair battle. If you want we can try it but i dont see how it will help... ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
Witch-Doctor (Mod) Paradox Post: 3002	+1 02.04.2017 - 13:39 Witch-Doctor (Mod) Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Phoenix Aristokrats Post: 2578 Da: UK	02.04.2017 - 14:48 Phoenix Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 02.04.2017 at 13:39 Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. Ivans not changing anything, can you stop arguing for this now? ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
Witch-Doctor (Mod) Paradox Post: 3002	02.04.2017 - 14:57 Witch-Doctor (Mod) Scritto da Phoenix, 02.04.2017 at 14:48 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 02.04.2017 at 13:39 Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. Ivans not changing anything, can you stop arguing for this now? You dont play the game anymore, just leave. Caricamento... Caricamento...
clovis1122 Epic Clan Post: 9043 Da: Repubblica Dominicana	02.04.2017 - 15:57 clovis1122 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 02.04.2017 at 13:39 Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. I lost a single* duel in which you tbed me multiple times. The deal was turk vs ukr but you ran away to Poland. I'll get my revenge later. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Witch-Doctor (Mod) Paradox Post: 3002	02.04.2017 - 16:09 Witch-Doctor (Mod) Scritto da clovis1122, 02.04.2017 at 15:57 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 02.04.2017 at 13:39 Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. I lost a single* duel in which you tbed me multiple times. The deal was turk vs ukr but you ran away to Poland. I'll get my revenge later. No the deal was you beat DS not turk vs ukr. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Stryko Account eliminato	+5 02.04.2017 - 18:32 Stryko Account eliminato Oh My God Lao The Strat Killer Caricamento... Caricamento...
Xenosapien Stalins Martians Post: 2102 Da: UK	+1 02.04.2017 - 20:02 Xenosapien Scritto da clovis1122, 02.04.2017 at 15:57 Scritto da Witch-Doctor, 02.04.2017 at 13:39 Clovis you lost your duel to ds, can you stop arguing against this now. I lost a single* duel in which you tbed me multiple times. The deal was turk vs ukr but you ran away to Poland. I'll get my revenge later. Hahaha Caricamento... Caricamento...
KingJim Account eliminato	02.04.2017 - 20:34 KingJim Account eliminato Its nerf or nothin Caricamento... Caricamento...
Heat Check (Mod) ENIGMA Post: 2806 Da: Canada	03.04.2017 - 09:32 Heat Check (Mod) Removed some of the off-topic comments. Please keep the discussion focused on the topic at hand instead of arguing about personal problems. You don't have to agree with the OP but let's be constructive here, people complain the community isn't asked for their input, lets try make this productive and help better the game. ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
W4R_MaChINE Blue-Dragons Post: 372 Da: USA	07.04.2017 - 11:11 W4R_MaChINE Why hasn't DS been nerfed yet? It is clearly too OP with militia boost and marine capacity. Plus the added advantage of helis against inf (-2 defense to helis) Caricamento... Caricamento...
Witch-Doctor (Mod) Paradox Post: 3002	+2 07.04.2017 - 15:29 Witch-Doctor (Mod) Scritto da W4R_MaChINE, 07.04.2017 at 11:11 Why hasn't DS been nerfed yet? It is clearly too OP with militia boost and marine capacity. Plus the added advantage of helis against inf (-2 defense to helis) Noobs who use it as a crutch complaining their toy is being taken away Caricamento... Caricamento...
Permamuted Illyria Post: 6176 Da: Irlanda	07.04.2017 - 15:54 Permamuted The complaining doesnt matter when it has no basis, just waiting for ivan to login. He'll either do it or he wont. ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
Phoenix Aristokrats Post: 2578 Da: UK	08.04.2017 - 09:58 Phoenix I love the complaining. It's why I log in. like watching Jeremy Kyle ---- Caricamento... Caricamento...
Waffel Syndicate Post: 6422 Da: Gibuti	+1 08.04.2017 - 11:11 Waffel So whats it gonna be? What exact nerfs are gonna happen? Because it seems like we are waiting for Ivan to ''do it or he wont do it'' yet we (the community who is asked) don't know what he will do or wont do? ---- Scritto da Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44 Waffel for mod 2015 Caricamento... Caricamento...
Evic Epic Clan Post: 1534 Da: Croazia	+1 08.04.2017 - 16:14 Evic Everyone who isnt a DS exploiter or clovis wants it nerfed, move on with it. Caricamento... Caricamento...
Waffel Syndicate Post: 6422 Da: Gibuti	+1 08.04.2017 - 17:16 Waffel Scritto da Evic, 08.04.2017 at 16:14 Everyone who isnt a DS exploiter or clovis wants it nerfed, move on with it. Thank you for your input. ---- Scritto da Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44 Waffel for mod 2015 Caricamento... Caricamento...

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